Point one: No two people are alike not really.
I am thinking of two songs right now, one is by Dave Mason, and says, “there ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy, there’s only you and me and we just disagree”, speaking of friends that have been separated for a while and find that they no longer agree on many things… so good friends become “former friends.”
The other song by Joni Mitchell says, “But now old friends are acting strange, they shake their heads, they say I’ve changed. Something’s lost but something’s gained in living every day. I’ve looked at life from both sides now, from win and lose, and still somehow it’s life’s illusions I recall. I really don’t know life at all.”
Both of these songs find friends at odds, looking at the same things in a different way. One agrees to disagree and the other is just disillusioned with life, period.
I know both of those emotions up close and personal. Sometimes people take a different path, one that you find you cannot or will not walk down, so you go your separate ways. It doesn’t take away from the good times you used to have, it just means there are no more good times to be had, with them. A lot of things you can just let go, like whether you prefer Chinese or Mexican food for take-out, but things that make a difference in your life or the way you live it cannot be compromised. One thing I hate is to be around someone who takes for granted that I agree with their stance on some things I may consider outrageous without ever really talking to me about it. It makes me think of some of those talk shows where someone addresses the audience which is booing them with, “You don’t know me!” The man who wrote the greater part of the New Testament, Paul, and a fellow disciple Peter, the disciple that recognized Jesus as the Son of God, had a major disagreement concerning Kosher vs. non-Kosher! Paul had an argument with Barnabas over young John Mark, who got homesick! Yes, these “holy” men had major conflicts, we won’t even talk about the one concerning circumcision!
Point two: You can disagree on minor things and still have communion.
Denominational differences? Stupid! What difference does it make to your eternal salvation what you wear or how you sing? Will it damn your soul to hell? No! What does matter?
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.’ This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: ‘Love others as well as you love yourself.’ These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.”
I can love my family the way I love myself, it gets a little harder with some others, so I look to God for strength! Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
As long as you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, that He died on a cross for our sins, was buried and raised again in three days to live eternally with Father God and that one day He will return in the clouds as He went away, to take us home with Him, and that He is the only door by which we can reach God then, “there ain’t no good guys, there ain’t no bad guys, there’s only you and me and we just disagree!”
Point one: No two people are alike not really.
I am thinking of two songs right now, one is by Dave Mason, and says, “there ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy, there’s only you and me and we just disagree”, speaking of friends that have been separated for a while and find that they no longer agree on many things… so good friends become “former friends.”
The other song by Joni Mitchell says, “But now old friends are acting strange, they shake their heads, they say I’ve changed. Something’s lost but something’s gained in living every day. I’ve looked at life from both sides now, from win and lose, and still somehow it’s life’s illusions I recall. I really don’t know life at all.”
Both of these songs find friends at odds, looking at the same things in a different way. One agrees to disagree and the other is just disillusioned with life, period.
I know both of those emotions up close and personal. Sometimes people take a different path, one that you find you cannot or will not walk down, so you go your separate ways. It doesn’t take away from the good times you used to have, it just means there are no more good times to be had, with them. A lot of things you can just let go, like whether you prefer Chinese or Mexican food for take-out, but things that make a difference in your life or the way you live it cannot be compromised. One thing I hate is to be around someone who takes for granted that I agree with their stance on some things I may consider outrageous without ever really talking to me about it. It makes me think of some of those talk shows where someone addresses the audience which is booing them with, “You don’t know me!” The man who wrote the greater part of the New Testament, Paul, and a fellow disciple Peter, the disciple that recognized Jesus as the Son of God, had a major disagreement concerning Kosher vs. non-Kosher! Paul had an argument with Barnabas over young John Mark, who got homesick! Yes, these “holy” men had major conflicts, we won’t even talk about the one concerning circumcision!
Point two: You can disagree on minor things and still have communion.
Denominational differences? Stupid! What difference does it make to your eternal salvation what you wear or how you sing? Will it damn your soul to hell? No! What does matter?
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.’ This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: ‘Love others as well as you love yourself.’ These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.”
I can love my family the way I love myself, it gets a little harder with some others, so I look to God for strength! Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
As long as you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, that He died on a cross for our sins, was buried and raised again in three days to live eternally with Father God and that one day He will return in the clouds as He went away, to take us home with Him, and that He is the only door by which we can reach God then, “there ain’t no good guys, there ain’t no bad guys, there’s only you and me and we just disagree!”
I’m looking at life from both sides now; I have been young and now I am, well, I’m a little older!
Harolene.com 
I want to respond to your post. I am having a lot of thoughts and trying to sort them out. What to respond with and what is just me rambling… All that.
I think this was your stand out sentence:
One thing I hate is to be around someone who takes for granted that I agree with their stance on some things I may consider outrageous without ever really talking to me about it.
An indictment in some ways, a challenge in others, and invitation too.
Will be back as time allows…
Thanx for your post.
X
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That IS, to me personally, the most important sentence. I’ve been in situations where I’ve been taken for granted and to not speak up makes you ill, to speak up causes screaming controversy. I’m sick to death of it all. Popeye says it best, “I am that I am and that’s all that I am” 😇🙏
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Turns out, I am just so busy…
Maybe this will be of some use, maybe it will make some sense. Probably it is NOT the best.
Let me tell a parable.
A group of hikers go up a mountain trail. As they disappear deep into the woods several hours later and several miles too, bad weather unexpectedly begins to set in. Pretty quick, even the more experienced among them speak of heading back prematurely to play it safe.
However, there are some tough decisions to make.
Turns out, if they take the low trail back, it will take them longer, they are assured of it. But the trip will be easier to hike. Yet odds are, they need to move fast. Also, there was a bear spotted down near the river before, and that would complicate things. Almost certainly, if they go that way, they will suffer the bad weather AND might have to face a bear.
If they take the high road, the trail is much tougher. The less experienced hikers will find it very challenging, possibly even paralyzingly fearful. However, the trail is much shorter, the stand great chance of beating the storm, AND there is an old supply hut up there where they might weather the storm if they cant move fast enough.
Hmmm…
Which way to go?
A couple of people present themselves as leaders and strong decision makers. They disagree on the plans. No doubt if they all stay together, the odds of survival are better. If they split up the assets and their skills, then each way becomes even more risky than it otherwise would be. But there are these three options. High road. Low road. Split up.
Oh… and you are one in the group.
This isn’t a matter of tolerating each other. We are either in it together or not. Some of us might not make it at all. All of us might not. The stakes are high.
This parable shows that our agreement on things is not always easy come easy go. We might disagree about our favorite color, and that might not matter in MOST settings, but come wedding time, and it probably will.
In the KINGDOM of God, comes across in English as sounding like a PLACE. However, it is better translated as RULE of God. God rules creation in a certain way. He seems to give us the room to disagree with him about it, but that seems to compound the complexity of the disaster too. OH… if we were robots! Then it would be EASY. Might not be what we like, but it would be easy – at least in theory.
Paul rights to the church in Philippi a letter that fascinates us. We tend to call it the Epistle of Joy, and there is good reason for that. BUT… sit and listen to it in its entirety and in context, and notice the two women in this church that seem to have some kind of ax to grind with each other.
I don’t know if it has developed into a full blown fight, but Paul is taking it seriously. Perhaps it is still a small thing and they can manage it. I hope. But in some ways, the letter seems to work as if the above parable were ALMOST, in SOME sense, at SOME levels, stretched out to cover the whole of church business in the whole of creation.
Philippi is a Roman colony settled, at that time, by retired legionnaires. Think of it! These are old soldiers who have already given their lives to Caesar, but they didn’t die in any battles. They survived them, and as their reward for their loyal service, Caesar sends them to this beautiful, lush, piece of paradise situated along a very strategically important (and otherwise vulnerable) stretch of the ancient super highway known as the Egnatian Way.
I should back up and tell the whole story, but we don’t have time and space. Let me TRY to shorten it.
Do you know HOW one man rules the whole world?
Well, that is pretty complex, but in the simplest terms, once you get the power, you hold on to it by delegating, AND by punishing those who fail or who thwart and by rewarding those who do well.
Caesar is collecting tribute, tax, spoils of war, and booty from the far reaches of the known world, and most of that treasure passes along the Egnatian Way. But there is this little spot where it bottle necks and gets a bit vulnerable. However, this same spot is also beautiful country, lush and fertile. So, Ceaser has a brilliant idea. He will settle his retired soldiers THERE. It’s a colony, a TAX FREE colony. And Caesar basically tells these old soldiers, live there, plant a crop, raise a family, keep a mistress on the side… live it up. LIVE IN LUXURY! And do it TAX FREE. In fact, run the place any way you want. ANY WAY YOU WANT… with just one small condition. Ensure that stretch of highway always remains secure for my booty!
Wow! Helluva deal!
And these guys were only too happy to oblige. This is what they had always lived for anyway… to serve the emperor, and now they do it as a reward.
So, when old legionnaires settle down, sink in roots, and start getting old… they do a lot of drinking, remembering glory days, and all that. They fly the flag of empire for ALL THEY ARE WORTH. And these guys do it LOADED with cash!
Now, just imagine you lived in downtown Philippi run by THESE guys.
Around here, we have our Friday Night Lights, as we say. And in Lubbock it starts on Thursday, again on Friday, We get another round with Tech on Saturday, and then Sunday we have the Dallas Cowboys (a growing fan base for both the Houston Texans and the Denver Broncos). But think about that Friday night game a moment. That is high school kids. And this is Texas. But its the USA where we have outlawed prayer in school, right?
Sure…
Oh, there’s a prayer! A prayer AND a national anthem. Everyone stands for the solemn moment. Bowed heads and then hands on hearts. To watch that flag go up the pole as the band plays the song… just brings a tear to the eye, don’t it?
Yeah… only now go to Philippi when Paul was there.
They don’t play football quite the way we do, but a bit more gladitorially. But you can bet they have prayers. And do you know what the prayer of Philippi sounds like?
They recite a three word prayer, and they like to do it in unison. In fact, they might repeat it and chant it, and stomp their feet with it as it swells louder and louder and fills your heart with pride, brings a tear to the eye, and might even thunder fear through the hearts of any who would DISAGREE with it.
They say, “Caesar is lord! CAESAR is lord!! CAESAR IS LORD!!!”
If you were a bandit, a rebel, or a spy and you were traveling along the Egnatian Way and you came along Philippi on a Friday night about game time, you would probably just keep on moving. Don’t stop for gas. Don’t let them find you around here past sundown… you know… that kind of thing.
Oh… and if you live there?
Well, you probably get used to it… sorta. But it’s not just at the game either. They got it up on the wall at the courthouse too. Not the TEN COMMANDMENTS, but the Caesar is Lord prayer. And they start the court proceedings each day with the judge, the attorneys, and all the gallery rising to their feet to proclaim, Heil Caesar, and Caesar is lord!
If you showed up at court, and for whatever reason, found those words to choke on, then how do you think your case is gonna go with the judge???
We know a little about this town and the church there from Luke’s reports in Acts. But the letter Paul writes to that church holds our attention at the moment. Still, perhaps the stage can be set a bit with Luke’s offerings.
We know the first European convert is Lydia, a nice lady who meets Paul down by the river. But what is her job? Purple dye for royal robes??? Who wears that stuff??? Nobles at the highest levels??? Maybe even Caesar himself???
Hmmm…
So when wheN obeys the gospel Paul preaches, she stops saying Caesar is lord and starts saying Jesus is Lord!
What do you think that little change in her daily life is going to do to her business???
The New Testament doesn’t tell us. But, I am thinking her business becomes very tricky at first and is doomed to suffer sooner or later.
We meet another member of that church in Luke’s reports too. The jailer!
Who signs his paycheck?
Oh…
And if you know his story, and how he meets Paul… REALLY meets Paul, then you know he lives a life on borrowed time. He started to take his own life, except Paul stopped him. But if Paul and the others had fled, it would have been the honorable thing to do. The only reason he is alive and going to that church is because Paul and the others did not flee. And that changed EVERYTHING for this jailer who now no longer prays CAESAR is LORD, but rather proclaims Jesus, that humble jew boy from Naz is LORD.
And so back to Paul’s letter, right there in the first half of it, Paul puts in print those most daring words “AT THE NAME OF JESUS EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT … that… that… WHO???
THAT JESUS IS LORD!!!
Wow! Think of it!
Then Paul rolls up this letter, stuffs it in the travel bag of Epaphroditus, and sends him off down the Egnatian Way TO Philippi where this letter will be read aloud in front of the feuding sisters in that church!
Just imagine if Epaph gets pulled over by the Gestapo and they ask to “see your papers”!
Oh, man!
There will be a short inquest. Names will be revealed, tortures will follow.
Heaven help you if Paul writes YOUR NAME in THIS letter!
In fact, we know the letter got there largely BECAUSE we have a copy of it today!
So, these ladies are having a disagreement. Their names appear in the letter. Euodia and Synteche.
And Paul instructs this church that they are to hold each others’ interests as higher than their own. In fact at one point Paul tells them to have the SAME MIND among other things. This will require humility. BUT, and this is really interesting to me personally, their unity, says Paul, is a sign of destruction to their enemies! Wow! How does that work?
Not sure, really.
But this is KINGDOM of God business being conducted in a sleeper cell right beneath the nose of flag and empire.
In fact, right at the end of the letter, in almost a wink-wink fashion, Paul says there are some in Caesar’s household who send this church their greetings!
This disagreement stuff is serious. I am not a master of it by any stretch, but I recognize that it is really serious. It is not, actually, easy come easy go. It isn’t in God’s Rule.
This, then, becomes the trick – and saying “trick” is problematic to say the least. We gotta GET IT RIGHT AND BE ON THE SAME PAGE. Either one is a tall order, and both together is all but impossible.
We will not get there with any ounce of pride. I am sure of that. And I suffer that too. We really must humble ourselves to the point of death and hold one another as more important than ourselves. Therein is the path to this goal, but… for those on that path, there are some even from Caesar’s household who send us greetings!
Let’s talk!
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Wow what an excellent discourse‼️ Thank you for taking the time to write it. I love thinking of Paul and the guys in modern terms 😃
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I really meant to say some different stuff, but…
For one thing, I was interrupted a dozen times writing that. For another, by the time I got that part done, I had to quit.
But honestly, I want to talk more.
Hope you do…
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Always!!
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At the risk of strayiing too far off the biblical radar…
I think about how sometimes – SOMETIMES – we make friends – maybe even deep friends – of people we already profoundly disagree with. I think it is always an anomaly. Always SPECIAL when it happens and not regular at all, but it shows that there are more things at work here than our emotions and ideals.
Think of a group of soldiers in a fox hole defending against a common enemy, but one of them on OUR side is a Jew, another a Christian, another a Muslim. They go through a deep bond together yet have almost nothing in common other than this enemy. The bond may last a lifetime and may dictate each one over look much about one another that is otherwise offensive.
How does that happen?
It is not usual, but it does happen.
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Because the threat of loss of life was like the little melding tool, still in a drawer upstairs waiting for that deft left hand to hold it to fix some wire or piece of jewelry, the heat is the fear, they are the three wires separate at the end but melded together in that one common moment of shear terror when self preservation meant saving the others also. That’s a moment in time that forever gives them a common bond which doesn’t include anyone else. Make sense?
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I like it, and I think it is a partial answer. BUT, I also don’t like it… in that it gives too much credit to THE ENEMY and to FEAR.
But there are OTHER factors to consider also. And I am only getting started. (Thus, I appreciate your post. I think you open a door to quite a lot, really.)
Think about the fragmentation of an individual’s psyche in the modern era. Compare/contrast that with a person from an agrarian society or societies even more primative.
Imagine that you live in the house of your father (or father-in-law) your whole life. So did he. Thus the patriarch is the oldest of the living males in a line. They all live together.
I am not actually old enough to remember (at least not first hand) the old sitcom called Father Knows Best, but that title (and I presume the sentiment portrayed there) is/was a leftover from THAT world. If you are a male who lives long enough, you likely will become the patriarch yourself in your brief old age. BUT that doesnt dictate that once you get to that position, you just make up all the rules. No. You have watched a baton being passed two or three times in your own home, and maybe several times in other homes over the course of your life. There is a strong sense of continuity, and you are not apt to run off willy nilly to break with it.
You tow the line. You act in the same manner as those you saw before, and those behind you are watching too. You might be Father, and you MIGHT know best, but you don’t feel some anarchist freedom to follow your own whims, no. You FEEL like you are supposed to live up to a certain model and ideal.
NOW as an aside… it is very hard to change people’s minds about things in THAT world. And make no mistake, there is some stinking thinking in all that. You might get a lot of free thinking people in THAT world together who will go so far as to write a declaration of independence and maybe even a constitution for a rule of law which invites all manner of NEW thinking to come in future eons, but those same people might still be utterly sexist, racist, and authoritarian at so many levels still and yet they cannot even see it.
Why say all this?
Because it is relatively easy to have agreement in THAT world. And it shows how the totality of reality plays its role(s) in that.
Yet even this is just one more slice of the pie. There are so many other aspects left undiscussed as yet.
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Having been basically raised and carried on a multi-generational household I totally understand and agree. Funny thing is that some of the branches from the original tree in my maternal side went to growing wild and dear God … just remember this is public… anyway disagreements to happen when the branches separate 💔 do you feel like your brain is exploding and you’re trying to salvage the pieces?? Only partly kidding …
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Ha…
No time for my own blog today, and I put so much on yours that it’s pretty well hijacked now. I figured I would see if I can get some more involvement.
Don’t expect the marauding hordes to come just because I linked you, though. I get two or three sleepy lookers pretty regular, and veryfew spicy commenters anymore.
Good people, but not a lot to say these days.
But as you say, it is public and who knows where it will go? The sky is always the limit.
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I also post on another site. The only ad it has is that I tweet it and there are over a thousand hits a day. I have no idea who these people are, I mean who?? Just from tweeting the link. It’s a simple 1 page site. You can see it and the hit count at apps.harowritingoutloud.com/blog hope that works.
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Okay… so you got this whole Father Knows Best thingy going on even before it was a TV show. But really it’s about this patriarchal arrangement. But once you start to get your head around that, you realize just how profoundly that dynamic alone affects so many others. You live in the same house among the same people pretty much all your life. There are exceptions to that, but most of them are fairly minor.
So, for instance, you get married and leave the home of your origin. But in agrarian and more primitive societies, you are most likely to move across the village and live with your inlaws. It is almost certain that you know these people and they knew you long before you got married. In fact, probably yalls parents arranged it, maybe about the time you were born. There is a very good chance some, if not all, of that household is already related to you. You may have an older sister or aunt who married into this home before you and may have some younger ones coming in behind you. Any and all of that suggests that life in this other household is VERY similar to the one you grew up in.
In fact, even by modern standards, come to Lubbock and find a rather strong homeostasis of ideals and lifestyles a homogeneity, an equilibrium running through … maybe even a majority of homes. These days this may be held together MORE by politics and school spirit for our favorite team than by religion and family ties, but there is still some of that community gumption here that we are likely to call CONSERVATIVE. It pales in comparison to the same vibe just two generations back, but I think its here and remarkable even now.
Just imagine then what it WAS like in times gone by.
Of course, like I said before, not everything was so good. In fact, quite a lot was not. And you couldnt hardly change anything because so much shame and so forth was so monolithic all through each of us. But it did have its upside.
You were slow to even imagine different. Things were like they are because they were meant to be. Always have been, always will be – or so we thought. Now days, that is almost an insulting idea.
But if my marriage was arranged, and if my sex life was a GIFT from God and my parents, and IF I did my marriage stuff in the home of my parents and my siblings, then my sexual imagination would be rather tame by today’s standards. Showing too much ankle would be the thrill. As it is, given what I can find on the web and what I found blowing along in alleys and down by the river when I was as young as 12, my imagination is slightly a higher octane!
I kinda think and hope that with a sexual imagination GEARED more toward my beloved and less toward every whim, AND with the great cloud of witnesses (not WATCHING per se, but nonetheless AROUND us day and night), that my thoughts would be deeply satisfied by the rather conservative lovemaking I would get AT HOME actually in the bed rather than dangling from the chandelier and not polluted by things I see on a TV screen.
And that great cloud of witnesses are a double edged sword. Positively speaking, they help me to rejoice in my mate. They celebrate the gift of marriage with me and my mate. They have a vested interest in keeping us together and in supporting us being together. It JUST FEELS right in that setting (I hope). Going the other way, ANY hankypanky outside of my marriage will be frowned upon BY people very close to me and to her. Any chandelier shenannigans (or same sex interests too) would threaten this tightly knit and interwoven family/community vibe we all have. I would upset my whole world for just putting my toe in some of those waters.
Contrast that to what I have today. I can pay for discretion among anonymous strangers and AI sex toys and maybe my wife wont even know. For that matter, she is probably reduced to such a toy in my love life anyway.
I know I tend to paint the bright side of that older norm and it is not entirely accurate, but only in its narrowness, I think. And I think the devastation of what we choose for ourselves in our current system is outlandishly horrible. I know I was devastated when my Christian parents split up and I was just 22. Made me want to ask, WHAT IS TRUTH? and I haven’t found anyone showing me the answer ever since.
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I was very blessed to have parents that had a miracle meeting, he proposed marriage to her after having known her for 3 hours, went back to LA and she to Cleveland, Tennessee and 3 months later had a church wedding at midnight on New Years Eve as the bells were tolling and they were totally in love. Mother was as careful about the way she looked in front of him as ever and he loved her. There was never a shadow of any type of indiscretion in their marriage and from what I could glean they had a great sex life too. That is what I thought I would get, just had to, wasn’t that the way it was??? Anyway, devastation comes to us all… my children were devastated by my divorce, but on a good note, their dad has always been in their life, I would never have kept him from them and today we are very good friends and when he is sick or needs prayer for anything from his business to his heart he calls me and asks for prayer. It gives me a peaceful happiness that he does know I will actually pray for him, and get an answer. I have a feeling that you and yours are doing just fine!!!
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I don’t mean to lament my personal love life with these observations, but to paint a picture of how costly it is to disagree. To say that in a world where OTHERS have so much investment in even my intimate love life (investment here does not mean personal involvement – as in participants or even gossip per se, but rather appropriate family ties) that we all seem to have some very deep and extensive webworks of agreement. I choose to talk about sex because of how personal and intimate that is. However, we could talk about WORK instead. If we all work in the family shoe shop or family farm and so forth, what exactly do paychecks look like?
We all live in the same house, eat the same food, go to the same church, and work at the same job. Might be 20 people from 3,4 or possibly 5 generations all doing this. My individualism is hardly a fraction, in that picture, of the way I experience it in modern life. When I was a baby, I got my own room in our house. I slept in my own bed. I was afraid of the dark. These are things my grandparents never experienced.
When I was in jr high, I got a stereo in that room and listened to music my parents hated. I got a TV soon after and stayed up watching shows they would rather I didnt’ Today, my kids lay awake in bed sending messages to friends and browsing the web on their phones and talking to strangers who wake them up at 3am. (Wanna think about how much sex is involved in that???)
Anyway, back to the job thingy…
We all work in the same mill, shop, back 40… whatever. Many of the duties we perform we do interchangeably. Probably the patriarch is in charge of most operations and tells us all what to do. He probably also handles the money, or at least makes the decisions about it. I might never or rarely have a dime in my pocket. My grandpa does NOT print out a check for me to cash. I don’t pay him rent. I also dont pay a mortgage. I don’t have a lot of extravagant bills. I don’t have a lot of things that are MY OWN. But we share a lot of things, and we don’t need a home security system since hardly anyone on this society we live in as such burgles anyone else in the first place, and secondly because there are a bunch of us in the house most of the time.
Major disagreements just don’t get too much steam mostly. And to the extent they do, well… Grandpa is there to rule over it and shut us up about it. We accept THAT.
And somehow we think of all of this as LOVE. The way things are supposed to be. They way they always have been.
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When I get a minute, which is rare when the guys (the twins) are here, I’m going to put in an email something of our family history which you may or may not be interested in. Headed out to pick them up now. Have a blessed day 😇
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